what a load of hoo-hah CRAP. What does our SEXUAL orientation have to do with our ability to interact with straight coworkers??? In my lifetime, I have worked with tons of people irregardless of knowing if they are gay or straight. This is not an issue... it's who you are and how you present yourself professionally that gets you higher up the ladder. Outside of that... if you feel insignificant in your office environment because you're gay, then you are having separation anxiety with your gay-self and your professional-self. GET OVER IT!

Said by: Glenn at June 21, 2006 08:33 AM

Glenn,

I will agree that how one presents himself/herself professionally has a lot to do with one's chances of moving up in the company. I will also agree that our sexual orientation should not have any bearing on how WE interact with our straight co-workers. The issue can be how THEY interact with US.

Despite your Pollyanna vision of the workplace, competent, professional, and capable people are still discriminated against for totally ignorant reasons that have nothing to do with their ability to do their jobs. Many companies also have "at will employment" policies that say they can fire anybody for any reason at any time, and in states where "at will employment" is legal, it is also legal to fire that employee for "unprofessional conduct" (read: "working while gay") and that employee would have no recourse.

Take off the rose-colored glasses, Glenn, and look around you. Don't be surprised at the number of "Oh my God! He's gay, and he's checking me out! Help, Human Resources, sexual harassment charge!!!!!" looks you might find.

Said by: David at June 21, 2006 09:14 AM

Is this book going to help us take over the world? That is one of the steps on the homosexual agenda right? I lost my copy.

Said by: Curt at June 21, 2006 09:58 AM

Okay... Living here in beautiful Southern California, I am one of those lucky individuals who is under the "at will employment". I also had the fortunate time to work with a fantastic lesbian boss during my first years here.

I've gone through more bosses than Kleenex in my 16 years here and I've seen them all! I really don't believe that being gay/straight/bi/whatever has any bearing on your abilities to be a productive worker. I've had several promotions based on my work ethics and not my orientation and I'm a happy drone! :)

I see more "power" trip type bosses who think their shit don't stink and they know all, see all, and therefore are above all. Well, those types never get ahead and trust me they stick out more than I would in a pink evening gown with six inch heels.

It's unfortunate being in an "At Will" state and could be fired for just about anything they seem fit. But here in California, gay discrimination in the workplace is against the law. So I keep my work clean and earn my paycheck just like any other person. I know I have legal recourse if necessary.

Love ya guys!
Keep it kinky (and out of the workplace!),
Buzz

Said by: Buzz at June 21, 2006 10:29 AM

I really do think gay people interact in the workplace with a different dynamic than their straight counterparts. I think one of the reasons David's ideas really seem to resonate is that as gay people, we are constantly having to think about, develop and examine our identities over the course of our lifetime. I think that does create some advantages (and disadvantages) for us in navigating the workspace. We become adaptabel and creative, but we can also become marginalized, withdrawn and resentful. It's a double-edged sword. However, many other factors like race and economic status come into play, so I'd be curious to see how David accounts for them in his arguments. Needless to say, I'm going to read his book.

And yes, Fausto, some of the worst leaders I have ever worked with have been gay people. Their misdirected self-hatred was like pure poison for all their team members. They were like mini Roy Cohns! Glad to be out of that!

Said by: Cesar at June 21, 2006 10:44 AM

Oops. I wrote about David in my post, but that was wrong. Sorry I misidentified you, Kirk Snyder!

Said by: Cesar at June 21, 2006 10:47 AM

Thank god I work in a rainbow flag factory. I don't have to worry about these things.

Said by: Curt at June 21, 2006 10:56 AM

Regardless of whether or not I totally buy Kirk's ideas specifically regarding management in the business world (I will reserve my judgment until actually reading the book), I do have to say the general points he brought up about how being gay makes us different were quite intriguing. Not sure if the message board is the place for this and excuse me if I wax overly poetic for a moment, but it really reminded me of a refrain in that crazy old biddy, Larry Kramer's speech, "The Tragedy of Today's Gays". Here goes:
"I love being gay. I love gay people. I think we're better than other people. I really do. I think we're smarter and more talented and more aware. I do, I do, I totally do. And I think we're more tuned into to what's happening, tuned in to the moment, tuned in to our emotions...and we're better friends. I really do think all these things."

When I first was coming out, I would tell people, "Being gay is not a choice, why would I choose to be persecuted, to have to deal with all the crap of being gay if I didn't have to." It was as if I was apologizing for being gay and saying I wish that I wasn't, but I am. Since then I have realized that the gay experience, with all the culture, community, and character of that experience embodied therein is truly amazing. If you participate in this culture, this heritage, you realize that it does inculcate a certain world view. I am more sensitive to the economically and politically powerless sectors of our society because I know what it is like to be in their place. I am more politically active because if I don't, I will suffer the consequences of losing my fundamental rights. I am accepting of all kinds people, because I know how many times I was told that I should be ashamed of what I am. The role models I have latched onto have been those older gay men that have shown me that embracing this shared identity, this community, by owning this "movement" in all its diversity can allow us to have a profound effect on the world we live in.
Today I say, I love gay people. I love being gay. I don't know if I share Larry's sentiments that we are better than other people, but I think we certainly are exceptional and amazing people. The mere act of being out of the closet and letting your "freak flag fly freely" as Fausto says, shows something more than your political views, or your social heritage; it shows something fundamental about your character.
As always Fausto and Marc, thank you for giving us this show, for giving us GOOD role models, for helping to give us to tools to develop our identities. You rule!!!!!!!

Said by: Ryan A. at June 21, 2006 11:56 AM

Amen, Ryan!

I thought this show was really affirming -- to say that some of the character traits that go with the gay experience are useful in the workplace, and should be celebrated. (whether they're demonstrated by gay bosses or straight bosses.)

I'm a little worried by Glenn's mention of "separation anxiety with your gay-self and your professional-self." Why should your gay self be any different from your professional self? There was a great article in the NY Times Magazine several months ago about covering. The gist was that the new acceptance of diversity in the workplace (with antidiscrimantion language protecting LGBTs and people of color and women), is not as great as it sounds. The author's argument was that the new "workplace diversity" only holds as long as the diverse (i.e. not white/straight/male) people cover their differences. He had a bunch of examples of people losing their jobs or basically having their jobs made unbearable until they were forced to leave, because they refused to cover. For example, a black woman wearing locks or a gay man having a photo of his partner on his desk. Their bosses accused them of being unprofessional, which was basically code for "not white/straight/male." It was a really disturbing article, I thought. Because it's so insidious -- they can't come out and say "We're firing you because you're gay." But people do get bent out of shape if you ACT gay (or black or insert minority here).

I'm lucky to have a really supportive boss and truly accepting workplace. (I think, as long as they're not plotting behind my back!) And a lot of gay and lesbian coworkers. Academia is the place to be -- domestic partner health benefits and all that.

But my partner isn't out at work, and her new job doesn't have any anti-discrimination policies regarding LGBT people! That is shocking to me... It's also an academic job, but not at a private university like mine is. So she covers every day there, which sucks, because she doesn't feel safe to be out.

Anyway, I don't think we're really equal until the law protects us to be BOTH our gay self and our professional self at work. If we still feel pressure to cover up who we are, we haven't gotten there yet.

I think it's great that Kirk is advocating for managers to try adopting some successful habits from their gay peers. Instead of squelching gayness, let's spread it around! Making the world a better place, one G quotient at a time...

p.s. here's the article, but they'll make you pay for it, those fuckers:
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30F11F834540C768DDDA80894DE404482

Said by: maia at June 21, 2006 03:53 PM

Kirk, you are amazing. I will buy the book very soon. If only the entire world were run by gay men who grew up a little oppressed and disadvantaged, we would all be a little better off. HEHE.

P.S. I miss my BMW, a.k.a. Miss Ronnie! I hafta tell her about my scholarly success. Her achievements in the classroom have been a motivation for me to get an A in my biology class, a goal which I am well on my way to reaching. So tell her to make time in her very busy schedule to come on the show!

Said by: Milton in NYC at June 21, 2006 06:10 PM

Ok, some replies:

Buzz: I'd pay money to see you in that gown and heels. ROTFLMAO thinking about it.

Cesar: Thanks for continuing to think about me...;-)

Kirk: I will definitely be buying your book. As an aspiring minister, being a manager will be a job of mine, and anything I can read will help.

Great show as always, guys!

Said by: David at June 21, 2006 11:04 PM

Bravo, Fausto & Marc!

Yet another outstanding show. The quality of your guests continue to impress me.

This type of non-traditional programming is more than just a breath of fresh air for intelligent people searching for information and entertainment; it's a desperately-needed slap in the face of the terribly one-sided monster called "media". Independently-produced podcasts fulfill the grand promise of the internet (if it has one): May all those, who have something to say, say it freely - without fear.

See you in Austin!

Said by: John Roger in Houston at June 21, 2006 11:43 PM

Show me the $$ David! I've done worse! :) ROFL!

Actually will be riding in the AIDS Lifecycle next year and they have a "red dress" day.... Look for me! I'll be the one in red! LOL

Kinks Away!
Buzz

Said by: Buzz at June 21, 2006 11:48 PM

This show hit me directly more than any other that I've heard to date. I am struggling with my current job for two main reasons that was touched on in this show; 1) not being out at work and 2) making parts that are used in bombs and all related systems, and this is even more stressful since I am also a pacifist (yes, a real life Queer Quaker here) who actively spends off-time protesting the war and what the global bully, the USA, is doing around the world and here at home in the name of homeland "security". Clearly my time at my current job is limited, and today's show gave me hope that I can find new employment in a more peaceful job AND work for like-minded, forward-thinking people. Can't wait to get Kevin's book, and keep up the great work, Mark and Fausto and rest of the gang.

Said by: Don at June 21, 2006 11:56 PM

S**t, sorry, it's Kirk's book, not Kevin's book. (I too suffer from trouble remembering names, Fausto)

Said by: Don at June 22, 2006 12:00 AM

S**t, S**t, I see it's spelt "Marc" too, not "Mark", Sorry, guess I'll stop trying now...

Said by: Don at June 22, 2006 12:03 AM

Hey Don, why is 6 afraid of of 7?

Cuz 7 "8" 9!
Old joke but I had to.

Glad people were intrigued by the show. In the end, I think gays rule and we have a unique point of view, but as Hillary says, "It takes a village"

Said by: Marc at June 22, 2006 01:06 AM

Very nice interview gents. I have a feeling that summing up Kirk's findings in an hour is difficult to do but I believe this interview was quite thought provoking for gays and straights alike. Probably is part of my Top Ten Feast of Fools episodes to date.

Said by: Mike (DMCEx) at June 22, 2006 06:12 AM

Sorry I have not written. Busy with work/family. I just heard this podgast. Funny Mark mentioned Lockheed and Boeing. They may build the same shit but they are VERY different when it comes to diversity. Lockheed is looking at same sex bennies (yeah right) while Boeing has a diversity department and same sex bennies. Only HR knows these folks. This industry as a whole is not Gay friendly to say the least. Still a good podcast

Said by: Andrew at June 27, 2006 08:58 PM

Hey Guys,

Just a quick note say I thoroughly enjoy your podcast! Fausto, you and Mark make a great team on the "Cyber-Waves." I've listened to another gay podcast... and hands down, F.O.F. RULES!!! Not only are you both quick, witty AND hilarious... you both are very well educated and articulate. That makes a good balance with broadcsting. I've been an anchor/reporter in T.V. for 13 years, and you guys ROCK!

-Josh (from West Virginia)

Said by: JOSH at June 27, 2006 11:49 PM