I'm the first comment, and just starting to listen to it before i konk out, and its very interesting so far. because I'm in the odd middle grounf and hearing Mikes and Joshes side are interesting to say the least.

Said by: Rochelle (from MN) at April 7, 2006 02:43 AM

and Damn is josh and Mike fine, but I'm more used to Mike's hotness, joshes is brand spanking new.

Said by: Rochelle (from MN) at April 7, 2006 02:44 AM

I bought Josh Killmer-Purcell's book (through Amazon of course) soon after your last interview with him. I was moved and touched and entertained and reminded of my own previous experiences as a drag queen. He is a very talented writer and is able to convey the emotional side of his story very well. "I Am Not Myself These Days" is a wicked awesome book! I encourage all the listeners to buy it and enjoy it as much as I did. I also can't wait to meet Josh at the meet-and-greet next Thursday. See you guys there!

Said by: Milton at April 7, 2006 04:53 AM

Very entertaining show. I haven't finished listening yet so this may not be the last comment but I had to chime in while I'm still rialed up.

I have had a problem with PETA for the last 10 years or so. With their "drink beer instead of milk" campaign and all the other 'illustrate the absurd by giving an absurd example' type of reasoning.

A couple of comments:

to say that putting a gold fish in an aquarium is like sticking me in a bathtub and covering it forever ..... well, that's just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. A gold fish takes up maybe 2 or 3 percent of an aquarium. Even in the largest bathtub, a human would take up minimum 40 or 50 percent. A fish's natural environment is water, not so for humans.

Number two. You don't have to be a member of PETA or not eat meat to have the compassion to pick up a worm off hot pavement and put it in the grass or dirt. Hell, I can't count how many times I've done that. I did it the day before yesterday, who wouldn't. I step around ant columns even! No matter what kind of life form, an animal that's alive should be killed just because you're bigger or too busy to bother.

operative word to describe young Mike.

Naive - Adjective - Marked by unaffected simplicity. A deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment.

Humans have canine teeth. Canine teeth are there to pierce and tear flesh. If we weren't designed to need animal protein to survive then we wouldn't have them. Of course I think that commercial chicken farms and slaughter houses are cruel, but instead of just being stupid, why doesn't PETA try to help these industries find a way to do their job (which is feed the population and yes that includes you Mike.... if you buy anything at all in a grocery store, you're part of the problem, not a cure for it) in a more humane way?

Said by: mike hipp at April 7, 2006 07:00 AM

Fabulous book Josh...ABSOLUTELY LOVED LOVED LOVED IT!!!!!!! Keep writting! I read it over and over. I think I have done it 5 times~

Is doing drag hard? I wanna do it, any suggestions?

Neyways, Fausto, Mark, Hilarious as usual! But what else is new? Great show you guys!

Mike...GO PETA!!! I think it is great what you guys do but sorry you're website freaks me out. I got nightmares from that! But hey rock on if that is what you wanna post!

Said by: ~aNdY!~ at April 7, 2006 07:11 AM

Mike, You did a fantastic job on the show today. Even if some people perception of the good work that your are doing is distorted (maybe another mike?), I know what you are doing is because of your compassion and love. I'm very proud of you.
As for Fausto and Mark can definitely say vegan cum is much better than carnivorous. How do you think I stay a 28" waist? Not just from running ;)

Said by: Russell Wetherbee at April 7, 2006 07:32 AM

You bring up a lot of good points, and I will address some of them but do not feel this is the forum to discuss everything of this nature. A fish’s natural environment is water, and we are in agreement on that, so my question is where is the justification for using the fish in the breast of a costume. A fish’s natural environment is also not in a small fish bowl on someone’s counter, just as a person’s natural environment would not be underwater. I never said that everyone had to run out and join PETA to show compassion, but unfortunately there are those who would not stop and help an animal, or even their fellow man. I am happy that you exhibit such compassion, and even if we do not agree on everything I appreciate what you do.

As far as the descriptive of my personal character, they too are welcomed. I have no need to justify my person, but will say that I am not naïve, nor am I “deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment”... I have seen the world, and have done more in my time on this earth than most care to do. I made the transition from defending my country to defending those who have no voice because of the passion and conviction that I have to see their quality of life improve. I would be happy to discuss this further with you in a different forum, but don’t feel this is the arena for that.

Humans are not carnivores. Our bodies are not designed to eat meat. You can see comparison charts on goveg.com that will illustrate the difference, or if you want I can elaborate more. If you go to our website peta.org, or goveg.com you will see what all of our efforts include. I do what I can to reduce the amount of suffering in the world. I tell people that if they feel that we are “stupid” or “crazy” in what we do, give us a suggestion as to what should be done to make the conditions better for these animals. 27 billion animals are slaughtered a year for human consumption, and we are a nation that is dying of dietary disease.

I am the only person in my family that does not have cancer or diabetes. I use to eat meat, and never made the connection myself. If you feel compassion towards a dog, a cat, or even a worm—then extend that compassion to ALL animals.

I am always available for comment and discussion. I am in agreement that not all of us will agree on everything, but there is always common ground and room for all of us to learn from each other. You can contact me at www.myspace.com/petabodybuiler thanks.

Said by: Mike B. at April 7, 2006 08:25 AM

Next argument about PETA's policies.

If it's wrong to eat meat then why is it alright to eat plants? Where is the line drawn. Plants are alive, they reproduce and we don't know that they can't feel pain, do we? It may sound odd, but doesn't a plant deserve to live it's life, unmolested by humans?

Why is it okay to have a dog or a cat but not a gold fish btw?

I think, perhaps, there's a bit of anthropomorphism going on here, but perhaps that's unavoidable.

One other thing about humans and their diets as they relate to our health. It's not eating meat that has ruined our health as a nation. It's our inactivity. When humans all did physical labor for a living we were fine eating everything we could get in our mouth. It's the modern practices of sitting in front of a computer or on your couch having your food delivered that's caused us to be a nation of heart disease.

Finally, I'll stand by my naive comment, but will apologize for saying stupid. I wasn't saying that Mike is stupid... I should have said that PETA's policies (of which Mike is today's representative) are crazy stupid, not stupid stupid.

Said by: mike hipp at April 7, 2006 08:49 AM

I'm agreeing with an number of things that people have said on here. While Mike B. is obviously a man on a mission, I have to wonder how much thought actually goes into the things that he, and I assume, PETA say. As Mike Hipp says, putting a person in a bathtub is a REALLY bad comparison to putting a fish in a tank.

As for the consuming or not consuming of meat. Isn't everything about moderation? We do have canine teeth and that is because evolutionarily we have needed to eat meat, and there is nothing wrong with continuing to do so. Mike B. I might suggest that perhaps the link between cancer and eating meat isn't the eating of the meat itself but rather all of the chemicals and hormones that are given to animals and that we then consuming. Chemicals and hormones wreck havoc on our bodies, not meat itself. So the solution then is not to stop eating meat, but rather to eat organic or free-range meats.

I'd also like to say something about the whole sentience question, and fish feeling pain, and lifespans, etc. Firstly, to be sentient an animal must be self-aware. Fish are not self-aware. The only animal, apart from humans, that hhas demonstrated any form of self-awareness are chimpanzees. There is a liklehood that other primates are also self-aware and possibly other species, but fish simply lack the complex nervous system and brain size to be selfaware. I suppose it isn't impossible, but science suggests that it it VERY HIGHLY unlikely.

On pain, I'm sure fish feel it. All animals do. It is the mechanism which causes a reflex response to escape bodily harm. Yes this is stressful for the fish, but they are just as likely to feel pain in the wild as they are in captivity. I might even guess that they are less likely to feel it in capitivity because they aren't being subjected to the violence of the real world. I believe we can all agree on how uncomfortable the real world is. Even been camping? Sucks when you don't have all the modern conviences that isolate us from the rigors of nature, doesn't it?

As for the 250 year life-span. Goldfish? really? I don't know anything about that so I certainely can't say anything about that. But where are the studies that consider how many animals live out the fullness of their potential lifespans? Fish in the wild have to SURVIVE. They must survive not always being able to find sufficient food (makes being fed seem real nice compared to having to go looking for it, even if your human is a bit late feeding you from time to time). They must survive all of the predators in nature that are just looking for a fishy meal. And they have to survive the elements, the seasons, etc. etc. etc. I'd like to posit that it is a much harder world out there in nature and maybe those captive fish don't have it so bad. And like Josh K-P. said, his fish did get into some of the hotest new york clubs without even waiting in line.

Said by: Daniel at April 7, 2006 09:09 AM

It is safe to say that if you cut your grass, the lawn does not scream, but if you light a cat’s tail on fire that it does feel pain. If you really cared about plants you would adopt a vegetarian diet as more crops are produced in this county to support the meat industry (16 pounds of grain to produce one pound of animal flesh).

The basis of the program was that it is never okay to use an animal for the purpose of “entertainment”. I even went as far to say that if you do have a fish, that you should give it love and attention, and that you should give it the best life possible. ALL animals deserve to have compassion not just dogs and cats. Would you put your dog in an unnatural, frightening environment just for the sake of “entertainment”?

Cruelty is never justified, in any context. People who are both vegetarian and non vegetarian can agree that it is never okay to: rip the heads of chickens while they are alive, to drug an animal to the point that it grows so large that it’s body cripples under the excess weight, or to force an animal to spend its entire life caked in its own filth in constant chronic pain. You can go to meetyourmeat.com to see the footage yourself.

Meat based diets have been linked to all major dietary diseases. You can go to goveg.com to see the science behind it. As a fitness trainer, nutritionist, and vegan athlete I can attest to the fact that has been the best thing for my health. The food of today is not the food of yesterday. Animal flesh contains nothing more than saturated fat, cholesterol and in many instances food pathogens that can lead to death and disease. With all the vegetarian options on the market today it has never been easier to make the transition to vegetarianism.

I am definitely not naïve, and we can discuss this in another forum, but you are more than entitled to your opinion. But I do ask, where does the line begin for you? Where do you feel you are making an impact when it comes to animal suffering, are you contributing? I only ask that everyone do what they can with what they have. Have compassion for ALL beings, animal and human.

What is it about out policies that you feel are stupid? We are always open to suggestions; we always welcome comments, and appreciate what you do for animals. From what I can tell you sound like you have a good heart, and that your convictions are in the right place. Do what you can to make this world a compassionate place for all its beings, not just humans.

Said by: Mike B. at April 7, 2006 09:25 AM

For more information on any of these issues you can visit:

www.goveg.com

www.fishinghurts.com

www.peta.org

Said by: Mike B. at April 7, 2006 09:30 AM

And to clarify:

I said Koi fish can have a lifespan of up to 250 yrs.

Gold fish 10-30 years.

Said by: Mike B. at April 7, 2006 09:36 AM

Wow, what a show and look what open communication it's created! I'm impressed! Opionions abound and it's great to see the views of everyone.

As for me, I'll stick to my own and live life to the fullest even if it means in a covered bathtub. Anyone care to join me? LOL

Off to do some "taste testing"... Volunteers?

Your kinkster in S. California,
Buzz

Said by: Buzz at April 7, 2006 10:19 AM

HAHAHA... i love it...

Thanks, and it is awesome to see so many different opinions... this is what makes the world go round...

lol...

mike

Said by: Mike B. at April 7, 2006 10:47 AM

I like you Mike, I really do and I'm totally behind you that commercial food production is cruel to animals.

John won't go to the new aquarium here in ATL because he feels the same way you do. Keeping a 5 ton whale in anything smaller than an ocean is just wrong. I won't go either because I respect that opinion. Hell go to a pet store and look at the beta fish in their 3 oz containers and just try to make the argument that that's not cruel. So I'm totally behind your ethics and morals.

But

You can't say that your grass doesn't scream when you cut it. You can't say that a soybean doesn't cry when you take it's means of reproduction away.

Listen, seriously, 15 years ago science (though not I) thought that in order to have life you had to have oxygen and sunlight. Now we know that there is teeming life at the bottom of the ocean, where no sunlight can penetrate. These new lifeforms don't get their engergy in any way from the sun, they live off the hydrothermal vents along the oceaniac ridge. Then we find possible evidence of life on a metorite from Mars that was buried in Antiartica for 1.3million years!

Life is full of possibilities that we haven't even begun to phantom. So, IMO it's wrong and even dangerous to belive that just because we can't prove it, that plants can't feel or that that fish can't be self aware.

Here's the thing. And just go w/ me. PETA is to helping animals as bush is to the republicans. Neither PETA nor the republicans were really all that bad when they started. Sure they thought some crazy things, but they were harmless. Then the extremists from each group took hold and now neither can be taken seriously and therefore are doing more harm than good in the public eye for the cause they are supposed to be supporting.

Said by: mike hipp at April 7, 2006 11:08 AM

If you guys don't know about it, Keith and the Girl Podcast got a copy of the podshow contract and they read it on their podcast # 247. Yes this is the contract that Dawn and Drew etc signed. I think you might find it interesting as podcasters.

Eric

Said by: Eric at April 7, 2006 11:11 AM

There is currently no reason to believe that plants experience pain because they are devoid of central nervous systems, nerve endings, and brains. It is theorized that animals are able to feel pain so that they can use it for self-protection purposes. For example, if you touch something hot and feel pain, you will learn from the pain that you should not touch that item in the future. Since plants cannot move from place to place and do not need to learn to avoid certain things, this sensation would be superfluous. From a physiological standpoint, plants are completely different from mammals. Unlike animals’ body parts, many perennial plants, fruits, and vegetables can be harvested over and over again without dying.
We do what we can, and it is the responsibility for all of us to end suffering. I agree that within every group there are individuals that do go to extremes. We do not support violence or destruction of property. We conduct peaceful protests and demonstrations all within our first amendment rights.
I am delighted about all the conversation that is taking place and that we are finding some common ground. I agree that we will not see eye to eye on all the issues, but am glad we are open all open and taking all opinions into consideration.
As far as animal survival in the wild (from an earlier post): we cannot hold ourselves to what happens in the animal kingdom. In the wild animals procreate through rape, not something that would be tolerated in the civilized world. We also don’t eat raw flesh, or begin to salivate at seeing “road kill” as the bacteria alone in it would kill us. Natural carnivores produce their own vitamin c, are able to process the flesh of another animal, and there is just no comparison…
I on the other hand wouldn’t mind riding in the breast of a costume to get into the some hot spots, but don’t think the fish liked it too much.

Said by: Mike B. at April 7, 2006 11:58 AM

Being vegan I can understand both sides of the arguement...

But being vegan I have to say that at the end of the day I am on the side of Peta...

Said by: Krystofer at April 7, 2006 02:17 PM

Eric,
We listened to it when it first came out. If you are a podcaster I think you would find it funny. Our friend Wendy form Gabberjaw is a big fan of theirs. She turned us on to the episode. I think they had a different one a few months ago as well. The contract seems absolutely craptacular. We are lucky that we listeners that support the show. Please buy a tshirt today!
Glad to see that people are very involved in the show today. Great dialogue guys and gals and otherly gendered.

Said by: Marc at April 7, 2006 03:31 PM

Great show today guys! Josh is areal hottie .. I guess I need to start looking at the drag queens twice if they look that good as men!

I raced home today to read the message board since its difficult to find the time at work. I was EXTREMELY dissapointed the BUZZ and PUP DON did not tackle the pleather vs. leather controversy. I'm looking forward to the PETA protest at IML to see how these groups deal with the issue. I'll be sitting across the strett rooting for whomever has the best T-Shirts (natural cotton, pestacide free made in a country that respects human rights pays a living wage......... hmmmm where will I buy it.....)

EricM
60707

Said by: Eric M at April 7, 2006 06:28 PM

Where is Pup Don and Buzz??? I love it when the show's comments go into the double digits.

So are there any conclusions here? It all seems so pointless. Millions of helpless goldfish are being slaughtered as we speak

Said by: fausto at April 7, 2006 07:09 PM

Had this guy ever used a phone, or is PETA against that too?

Said by: dace at April 7, 2006 07:11 PM

I forgot to mention....

I can attest to the taste difference between vegan and meat eating sperm but there is a pronounced difference between smokers and non-smokers (based on long standing and rigorous personal research). I suspect diet does impact the flavor, viscosity and color. But "better" is a matter of personal taste .. some folks actually like runny salty jizz.

EricM
60707

Said by: Eric M at April 7, 2006 07:35 PM

Fausto and Marc, love you guys. Mike B, you da man. It was a great show today, very educational. There are often times I have been curious in the past about what is ethical and why we consider some things ethical and others not when they are ultimately the same (pro life - vegan correlation.) It was interesting to hear the different points of view on a subject that I had previously never really though out. Again, I loved it.

Said by: David -VW Norfolk at April 7, 2006 11:26 PM

It's very important and necessary for groups like Peta to speak up and make us reexamine from a new perspective what we take for granted about how humans treat other living creatures today. I agree that animals that have not been domesticated should neither be pets or in zoos. Some cultures are mean to animals - in Puerto Rico horses are often severely mistreated by the very poor. But is it productive to focus on the individual little guy who puts feeder gold fish into plastic boobs for a few hours or the bearded nun who accidentally 'cooks' the fish in her schoolroom fish tank? It's the big guys who cause the real problems on earth. Industrial and commercial entities including zoos, which are also commercial entities, regularly and on a large scale mistreat animals and human beings, not only in the work place, but by selling products laced with innumerable kinds of pathenogens. Commercial entities have also gotten away with causing havoc by transporting certain species of plants and animals from other parts of the world to other habitats where they have no natural predators and overpower local species (the coquis from Puerto Rico taken to Hawaii and the irises from the south taken to the north). This behavior must all be considered 'cruel and unusual punishment'.
To me these are issues apart from having pets. To promote their own survival, human beings have been extremely clever across time in domesticating - you could say dominating (read eating) - plants and animals.
To talk about putting pets in enclosed spaces as being 'mean' to me is a non issue. Pets living in houses, stalls, cages, tanks or ponds have given people great pleasure throughout the ages and helped to promote treating others with more respect. More importantly, taking care of plants and animals promotes healing in people.

Said by: Patricia Fernós at April 8, 2006 12:43 PM

What we are asking is that the same respect that is given to all animals not just the ones we consider Pets. Just becase a chicken, cow, pig are not as cute or cuddly as dogs or cats, but they still feel pain, they still suffer and still just want to live their lives in their natural states... not as someones meal.

We are very well trained in the use of phones, and most of the pepole I know that consider themsevles "leather daddys" are actually "pleather daddys" because it is less expensive and still effective....

Thanks DAVID!!!! You guys all rock!!!

Mike B.

Said by: Mike B. at April 8, 2006 01:17 PM

Hi Mike (and everyone),

Great that you're reading these comments.

I think you did a great job on the show, and you've quite improved my opinion of PETA with your sense of humor. Our friends Fausto, Marc and Josh made a lot of jokes and you were able to see the humor in all of them. That really surprised me coming from a PETA spokes.

I can't decide which of you -- Mike or Josh -- is cuter!

I told a friend of mine from Taiwan about this podcast. This was the first show he heard, and he says it's "the funniest thing since Sponge Bob", and he LOVES Sponge Bob.

I love y'all!

Said by: Shaunessy at April 9, 2006 07:03 AM

Good show - not sure If I agree with Josh or Mike. Though I realize we're talking about goldfish in boobs, I was a little alarmed at the level of maturity shown when responding to some of Mike's comments. Both sides of that argument deserved equal respect.

Said by: philly at April 9, 2006 10:58 AM

Awesome!!! I appreciate all the comments.. and am glad that we all have this outlet to express ourselves and our thoughts... I really appreciate everything everyone is saying and for all of your opinions...

Mike B.

Said by: Mike B. at April 9, 2006 11:35 PM

Does anyone have any idea why this specific show has sparked such a strong discussion here?

Said by: Fausto at April 10, 2006 12:02 AM

Hey there gang! I just got back from a weekend in San Diego and caught up with this... Well, as I posted earlier- I'm a guy who doesn't let an organization tell me (or preach) what to do, wear, eat, and live.

Yeah, I wear Leather and I'm proud to do it. Leather wear has been around a lot longer than pleather and some other materials. Christ, animal pelts were being worn to keep those early men warm for centuries, even before PETA was around! If PETA is so strong about wearing leather, then I suppose wool would be out of the question too! Sorry East coasters, you'll have to be cold without that sweater this season.

Besides, have you ever got off to the smell of pleather?! Eww! Then again, there are folks out there that enjoy it! Anyways, it's interesting that pup Don and I were discussing this issue on our way home yesterday! FOF has that power over us at times.

My take on the whole thing is that everyone has their opinions and are entitled to make their statements. Just like TV, if you don't like what your watching then change the damn channel! Nobody is forcing you to wear, watch, eat, see, and do anything (well, within reason anyways). You have choices and the freedom to make them.

PETA has it's philosophy and mission and they do some good. But it's not necessiarily something I totally agree with and that's okay, I don't have to. PETA will be PETA and I will continue to wear Leather, but I will also continue to wear other synthetics like rubber, cotton, and lycra, and eat a good hamburger when I need one!

Sorry this is so late in posting! Hope someone out there reads it. I have a bathtub to tend to before I go live in it (lol). Besides, it's 4:00 a.m. and I have to be getting ready for work.

Your kinkster in Long Beach and dedicated FOF fan,
Buzz

Said by: Buzz at April 10, 2006 06:54 AM

With the technology today, there is no need to contribute to suffering when not necessary. We just ask that people make compassionate choices when they are able to. If you are able to watch the videos and are able to still purchase the clothing items, food choices, and can do so knowing that you are contributing to what you have seen-- then at least you are making an informed decision. People still buy cigarrets knowing that they are bad for them, and people will still buy leather, animal flesh and the like despite the cruelty or damage to personal health.

I am glad that people are talking about it, and no matter what your opinion is on the topic-- I appreciate the discussion, the criticism, and the input. All of us in our lives should take a moment to ask what we did for those around us, for those who are less fortunate, and for ourselves. I am proud to be part of this discussion and am glad it has sparked a lot of talk...

Mike B.
PETA

Said by: Mike B. at April 10, 2006 09:56 AM

My guess Fausto is this is something that sparked with a lot of folks but I also believe the fact the Mike B took the time to respond frequently and politely to numerous posts also kept things livelier than normal. I venture to guess had he only posted once (which would be a shame).

I was also encounged that Buzz shares my opinion of pleather ... it may be less expensive but it doesn't feel, smell, stetch, fit, taste like real leather. Itstaken years to get my chaps so they fit like a 2nd skin and I plan to keep them till I get too fat to wear them. Then I'll hand them down like various otherwell worn leather items.

EricM
60707

Said by: Eric M at April 10, 2006 08:06 PM

Amen to that EricM!

Buzz

Said by: Buzz at April 10, 2006 08:41 PM

Hahaha... dont worry fellas I am not going to take those chaps away.. haha... But i am glad that we are able to have these types of discussion and to keep the ball rolling... I am always availible to comment and love talking about these issues... We all can learn from each other, and to have open conversations are how we establish common ground and either agree, or agree to disagree... but I think a lot of people have the misconception of us as all being radical in your face activists, but the majority of us are really laid back, and dont mind just chatting it up!!!

Love all of you!!!!

Mike B
PETA

Said by: Mike B. at April 10, 2006 09:44 PM

I'd still lick chocolate off you with my chaps on, Mike!

>
Buzz

Said by: Buzz at April 10, 2006 11:50 PM

Oh lovelt, but as long as its dark chocolate and not milk chololate.... at least then it would be partially vegan!

hahaha

mike

Said by: Mike B. at April 11, 2006 08:45 AM

Dark Chocolate and white chocolate should be vegan. It all plant products and oils. Unless you're thinking of yourself as the "meat" in the entree

EricM
60707

Said by: Eric M at April 11, 2006 09:35 PM

Ohhh... yeah, I could be if that is what is wanted... hehehehe....

love you guys!!!

Mike--

Said by: Mike B. at April 13, 2006 03:14 PM